Comments on: The Prius Deception . . . The Other Side of the Argument http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/ Entrepreneurial Leadership and Management . . . and Other Stuff Sun, 05 Feb 2012 18:29:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: 2011 Scion Xb http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/#comment-107137 2011 Scion Xb Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:58:00 +0000 http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/#comment-107137 I lost track of what I had been performing blog right after researching physical fitness connected issues on Yahoo I
lost track of what I had been performing blog
right after researching physical fitness connected issues on Yahoo

]]> By: The Prius Deception « 2-Speed http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/#comment-103607 The Prius Deception « 2-Speed Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:14:45 +0000 http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/#comment-103607 [...] response to the very thoughtful comment from David H. Hawkins, below, can be found in another post: The Prius Deception . . . The Other Side of the Argument AKPC_IDS += [...] [...] response to the very thoughtful comment from David H. Hawkins, below, can be found in another post: The Prius Deception . . . The Other Side of the Argument AKPC_IDS += [...]

]]> By: John Bower http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/#comment-163 John Bower Sun, 28 May 2006 23:34:44 +0000 http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/#comment-163 A couple of thoughts on the Prius. First I r an engineer too and don't forget it.  So I must be right.. <BR><BR>I think a more appropriate term is Prius Self Deception <BR><BR>I am not sure about the one fellow's statement of about having torque to overcome static friction. Static friction where? fluid lubricated journal bearings, antifriction roller bearings, static friction is of nominal consequence in these types of interfaces. One place where I definitely WANT NOT to overcome static friction is between my tires and the road. Otherwise you have a dragster style smoky burnout which is real bad for your gas mileage, tire life and keeping points off your driver's license. <BR><BR>One thing that I think people have completely lost track of is what the Prius is really about. Go to the Toyota Website, the purpose of the Hybrid system is not merely to get high gas mileage, it is also to reduce emissions, which it does very very well at. The Prius puts out about 1/10 what the average Low Emissions Vehicle does. Most people can't get excited about this fact because it doesn't translate into any personal gain. If carbon credits could be bought or sold on ebay, it might be a different story. <BR><BR>About disappointing gas mileage. All I can say is people are stupid. At 50 MPG a 10% reduction in mileage seems like a huge drop of 5 MPG, on the other hand at 18 MPG a 10% mileage increase doesn't seem all that spectacular, "um yea, I get about 18-20 MPG on the freeway".  Even when we do think about, most people look at the raw number, not adjust it proportionally. <BR><BR>Now I spent a little time poking around the Prius/Hybrid website blog thingys and there is a lot misconception. Years ago, BMW did a study on methods of improving gas mileage. Accelerating briskly, but in as high a gear as possible (ie lug the engine), produced better mileage in stop and go traffic, than slow acceleration in lower gears. Why? Pumping losses, gas engines are slowed down by restricting airflow past the throttle plates. Holding the throttle near wide open reduces pumping losses. That being said, I can't see this as being too substantial effect from 0-40 MPH. Certainly accelerating like a slug though doesn't buy you anything, other than a chance to sit at the next red light. <BR><BR>Some Prius owners are put off by the engine revving in some situations during slow acceleration (the engine kicks in to recharge the battery) and they think this is screwing up the gas mileage. Um let me see, the Prius drivetrain engineers must not know a thing about the specific efficiency of the combined engine / generator / battery combination. Idiots. It almost certainly revs to the most desirable speed taking into account may factors. <BR><BR>The air conditioner mileage hit. Freakin' Morons, just shut up. Air conditioners need energy to run, why do you think they ask you to turn off your AC at home when there is a threat of brown out /blackouts. Perhaps all cars should have a display that shows you how many gallons of gas per hour is being used by each accessory, as opposed to showing your change in mileage. <BR>        Accessory              (gas consumption .01 gallons/hr)     <BR>          AC                                        250                           <BR>      4 DVD players                           95 <BR> left turn signal that <BR>has been left on for the <BR>past 75 miles                                  10 <BR><BR>You pay as much for the privilege of air conditioning in a Prius as you would in another equivalently sized car with the same paint  and interior colors. Hint: get rid or your black car with the black interior. <BR><BR>Economic justification: Right now, personally, it is probably hard to justify a Prius over an equivalently equipped econobox. Perhaps if one's driving conditions optimally match the Prius, and if gas is expensive enough. I don't think we know quite what the Lifetime TCO is on these things. Battery life is frequently brought up in these discussions, but CA requires they be warranted for 150,000 miles, that ain't bad.  If you are a single commuter and you get to save time on your commute since you will be able to now drive in the HOV lane, it seems a no brainer if it only knocks 5-10 minutes off of your commute. <BR><BR>To look at this from a different perspective. A lot of people pay a premium to have a high performance vehicle, higher acceleration, better cornering, higher top speed. Do you think that this extra performance reduces ones in transit time by even 2% over the lifetime of the vehicle. Probably not (with perhaps a few exceptions). You normally don't see people complaining, "dammit, ya know, when I had that Nissan Sentra I couldn't get over 85 MPH and my commute from Silicon Valley took 75 minutes, now with this Vette, it's got a top speed over double that, and I only cut 2 minutes of my commute. WTF GM really misled me on this one." A couple of thoughts on the Prius. First I r an engineer too and don’t forget it.  So I must be right..

I think a more appropriate term is Prius Self Deception

I am not sure about the one fellow’s statement of about having torque to overcome static friction. Static friction where? fluid lubricated journal bearings, antifriction roller bearings, static friction is of nominal consequence in these types of interfaces. One place where I definitely WANT NOT to overcome static friction is between my tires and the road. Otherwise you have a dragster style smoky burnout which is real bad for your gas mileage, tire life and keeping points off your driver’s license.

One thing that I think people have completely lost track of is what the Prius is really about. Go to the Toyota Website, the purpose of the Hybrid system is not merely to get high gas mileage, it is also to reduce emissions, which it does very very well at. The Prius puts out about 1/10 what the average Low Emissions Vehicle does. Most people can’t get excited about this fact because it doesn’t translate into any personal gain. If carbon credits could be bought or sold on ebay, it might be a different story.

About disappointing gas mileage. All I can say is people are stupid. At 50 MPG a 10% reduction in mileage seems like a huge drop of 5 MPG, on the other hand at 18 MPG a 10% mileage increase doesn’t seem all that spectacular, “um yea, I get about 18-20 MPG on the freeway”.  Even when we do think about, most people look at the raw number, not adjust it proportionally.

Now I spent a little time poking around the Prius/Hybrid website blog thingys and there is a lot misconception. Years ago, BMW did a study on methods of improving gas mileage. Accelerating briskly, but in as high a gear as possible (ie lug the engine), produced better mileage in stop and go traffic, than slow acceleration in lower gears. Why? Pumping losses, gas engines are slowed down by restricting airflow past the throttle plates. Holding the throttle near wide open reduces pumping losses. That being said, I can’t see this as being too substantial effect from 0-40 MPH. Certainly accelerating like a slug though doesn’t buy you anything, other than a chance to sit at the next red light.

Some Prius owners are put off by the engine revving in some situations during slow acceleration (the engine kicks in to recharge the battery) and they think this is screwing up the gas mileage. Um let me see, the Prius drivetrain engineers must not know a thing about the specific efficiency of the combined engine / generator / battery combination. Idiots. It almost certainly revs to the most desirable speed taking into account may factors.

The air conditioner mileage hit. Freakin’ Morons, just shut up. Air conditioners need energy to run, why do you think they ask you to turn off your AC at home when there is a threat of brown out /blackouts. Perhaps all cars should have a display that shows you how many gallons of gas per hour is being used by each accessory, as opposed to showing your change in mileage.
        Accessory              (gas consumption .01 gallons/hr)    
          AC                                        250                          
      4 DVD players                           95
 left turn signal that
has been left on for the
past 75 miles                                  10

You pay as much for the privilege of air conditioning in a Prius as you would in another equivalently sized car with the same paint  and interior colors. Hint: get rid or your black car with the black interior.

Economic justification: Right now, personally, it is probably hard to justify a Prius over an equivalently equipped econobox. Perhaps if one’s driving conditions optimally match the Prius, and if gas is expensive enough. I don’t think we know quite what the Lifetime TCO is on these things. Battery life is frequently brought up in these discussions, but CA requires they be warranted for 150,000 miles, that ain’t bad.  If you are a single commuter and you get to save time on your commute since you will be able to now drive in the HOV lane, it seems a no brainer if it only knocks 5-10 minutes off of your commute.

To look at this from a different perspective. A lot of people pay a premium to have a high performance vehicle, higher acceleration, better cornering, higher top speed. Do you think that this extra performance reduces ones in transit time by even 2% over the lifetime of the vehicle. Probably not (with perhaps a few exceptions). You normally don’t see people complaining, “dammit, ya know, when I had that Nissan Sentra I couldn’t get over 85 MPH and my commute from Silicon Valley took 75 minutes, now with this Vette, it’s got a top speed over double that, and I only cut 2 minutes of my commute. WTF GM really misled me on this one.”

]]> By: John Bower http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/#comment-105975 John Bower Sun, 28 May 2006 23:34:00 +0000 http://www.2-speed.com/2006/05/the-prius-deception-the-other-side-of-the-argument/#comment-105975 A couple of thoughts on the Prius. First I r an engineer too and don't forget it.  So I must be right.. I think a more appropriate term is Prius Self Deception I am not sure about the one fellow's statement of about having torque to overcome static friction. Static friction where? fluid lubricated journal bearings, antifriction roller bearings, static friction is of nominal consequence in these types of interfaces. One place where I definitely WANT NOT to overcome static friction is between my tires and the road. Otherwise you have a dragster style smoky burnout which is real bad for your gas mileage, tire life and keeping points off your driver's license. One thing that I think people have completely lost track of is what the Prius is really about. Go to the Toyota Website, the purpose of the Hybrid system is not merely to get high gas mileage, it is also to reduce emissions, which it does very very well at. The Prius puts out about 1/10 what the average Low Emissions Vehicle does. Most people can't get excited about this fact because it doesn't translate into any personal gain. If carbon credits could be bought or sold on ebay, it might be a different story. About disappointing gas mileage. All I can say is people are stupid. At 50 MPG a 10% reduction in mileage seems like a huge drop of 5 MPG, on the other hand at 18 MPG a 10% mileage increase doesn't seem all that spectacular, "um yea, I get about 18-20 MPG on the freeway".  Even when we do think about, most people look at the raw number, not adjust it proportionally. Now I spent a little time poking around the Prius/Hybrid website blog thingys and there is a lot misconception. Years ago, BMW did a study on methods of improving gas mileage. Accelerating briskly, but in as high a gear as possible (ie lug the engine), produced better mileage in stop and go traffic, than slow acceleration in lower gears. Why? Pumping losses, gas engines are slowed down by restricting airflow past the throttle plates. Holding the throttle near wide open reduces pumping losses. That being said, I can't see this as being too substantial effect from 0-40 MPH. Certainly accelerating like a slug though doesn't buy you anything, other than a chance to sit at the next red light. Some Prius owners are put off by the engine revving in some situations during slow acceleration (the engine kicks in to recharge the battery) and they think this is screwing up the gas mileage. Um let me see, the Prius drivetrain engineers must not know a thing about the specific efficiency of the combined engine / generator / battery combination. Idiots. It almost certainly revs to the most desirable speed taking into account may factors. The air conditioner mileage hit. Freakin' Morons, just shut up. Air conditioners need energy to run, why do you think they ask you to turn off your AC at home when there is a threat of brown out /blackouts. Perhaps all cars should have a display that shows you how many gallons of gas per hour is being used by each accessory, as opposed to showing your change in mileage.         Accessory              (gas consumption .01 gallons/hr)               AC                                        250                                 4 DVD players                           95  left turn signal that has been left on for the past 75 miles                                  10 You pay as much for the privilege of air conditioning in a Prius as you would in another equivalently sized car with the same paint  and interior colors. Hint: get rid or your black car with the black interior. Economic justification: Right now, personally, it is probably hard to justify a Prius over an equivalently equipped econobox. Perhaps if one's driving conditions optimally match the Prius, and if gas is expensive enough. I don't think we know quite what the Lifetime TCO is on these things. Battery life is frequently brought up in these discussions, but CA requires they be warranted for 150,000 miles, that ain't bad.  If you are a single commuter and you get to save time on your commute since you will be able to now drive in the HOV lane, it seems a no brainer if it only knocks 5-10 minutes off of your commute. To look at this from a different perspective. A lot of people pay a premium to have a high performance vehicle, higher acceleration, better cornering, higher top speed. Do you think that this extra performance reduces ones in transit time by even 2% over the lifetime of the vehicle. Probably not (with perhaps a few exceptions). You normally don't see people complaining, "dammit, ya know, when I had that Nissan Sentra I couldn't get over 85 MPH and my commute from Silicon Valley took 75 minutes, now with this Vette, it's got a top speed over double that, and I only cut 2 minutes of my commute. WTF GM really misled me on this one." A couple of thoughts on the Prius. First I r an engineer too and don’t forget it.  So I must be right.. I think a more appropriate term is Prius Self Deception I am not sure about the one fellow’s statement of about having torque to overcome static friction. Static friction where? fluid lubricated journal bearings, antifriction roller bearings, static friction is of nominal consequence in these types of interfaces. One place where I definitely WANT NOT to overcome static friction is between my tires and the road. Otherwise you have a dragster style smoky burnout which is real bad for your gas mileage, tire life and keeping points off your driver’s license. One thing that I think people have completely lost track of is what the Prius is really about. Go to the Toyota Website, the purpose of the Hybrid system is not merely to get high gas mileage, it is also to reduce emissions, which it does very very well at. The Prius puts out about 1/10 what the average Low Emissions Vehicle does. Most people can’t get excited about this fact because it doesn’t translate into any personal gain. If carbon credits could be bought or sold on ebay, it might be a different story. About disappointing gas mileage. All I can say is people are stupid. At 50 MPG a 10% reduction in mileage seems like a huge drop of 5 MPG, on the other hand at 18 MPG a 10% mileage increase doesn’t seem all that spectacular, “um yea, I get about 18-20 MPG on the freeway”.  Even when we do think about, most people look at the raw number, not adjust it proportionally. Now I spent a little time poking around the Prius/Hybrid website blog thingys and there is a lot misconception. Years ago, BMW did a study on methods of improving gas mileage. Accelerating briskly, but in as high a gear as possible (ie lug the engine), produced better mileage in stop and go traffic, than slow acceleration in lower gears. Why? Pumping losses, gas engines are slowed down by restricting airflow past the throttle plates. Holding the throttle near wide open reduces pumping losses. That being said, I can’t see this as being too substantial effect from 0-40 MPH. Certainly accelerating like a slug though doesn’t buy you anything, other than a chance to sit at the next red light. Some Prius owners are put off by the engine revving in some situations during slow acceleration (the engine kicks in to recharge the battery) and they think this is screwing up the gas mileage. Um let me see, the Prius drivetrain engineers must not know a thing about the specific efficiency of the combined engine / generator / battery combination. Idiots. It almost certainly revs to the most desirable speed taking into account may factors. The air conditioner mileage hit. Freakin’ Morons, just shut up. Air conditioners need energy to run, why do you think they ask you to turn off your AC at home when there is a threat of brown out /blackouts. Perhaps all cars should have a display that shows you how many gallons of gas per hour is being used by each accessory, as opposed to showing your change in mileage.         Accessory              (gas consumption .01 gallons/hr)               AC                                        250                                 4 DVD players                           95  left turn signal that has been left on for the past 75 miles                                  10 You pay as much for the privilege of air conditioning in a Prius as you would in another equivalently sized car with the same paint  and interior colors. Hint: get rid or your black car with the black interior. Economic justification: Right now, personally, it is probably hard to justify a Prius over an equivalently equipped econobox. Perhaps if one’s driving conditions optimally match the Prius, and if gas is expensive enough. I don’t think we know quite what the Lifetime TCO is on these things. Battery life is frequently brought up in these discussions, but CA requires they be warranted for 150,000 miles, that ain’t bad.  If you are a single commuter and you get to save time on your commute since you will be able to now drive in the HOV lane, it seems a no brainer if it only knocks 5-10 minutes off of your commute. To look at this from a different perspective. A lot of people pay a premium to have a high performance vehicle, higher acceleration, better cornering, higher top speed. Do you think that this extra performance reduces ones in transit time by even 2% over the lifetime of the vehicle. Probably not (with perhaps a few exceptions). You normally don’t see people complaining, “dammit, ya know, when I had that Nissan Sentra I couldn’t get over 85 MPH and my commute from Silicon Valley took 75 minutes, now with this Vette, it’s got a top speed over double that, and I only cut 2 minutes of my commute. WTF GM really misled me on this one.”

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